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Old 01-16-2011, 04:53 PM   #1
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Question Multiple shots with one trigger pull

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Hello, I've been a lurker here for several months while I learned about my P99 (my first handgun purchase). It is now about 5 months old and I have put about 1300 rounds through it. It has been jam and misfire free, and will eat any ammunition I have fed it. On several occasions, the gun has discharged 2 bullets with one pull of the trigger (it happened twice today in 100 rounds). One time it discharged 3 bullets with one trigger pull. The guys at the range told me it was possible to ride the trigger reset and bump fire the pistol. Is this normal, or should I have Walther/S&W look at the gun? What could cause this type of behavior? If it's operator error (my usual problem), what should I be doing differently?
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Old 01-16-2011, 05:14 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by athens7 View Post
Hello, I've been a lurker here for several months while I learned about my P99 (my first handgun purchase). It is now about 5 months old and I have put about 1300 rounds through it. It has been jam and misfire free, and will eat any ammunition I have fed it. On several occasions, the gun has discharged 2 bullets with one pull of the trigger (it happened twice today in 100 rounds). One time it discharged 3 bullets with one trigger pull. The guys at the range told me it was possible to ride the trigger reset and bump fire the pistol. Is this normal, or should I have Walther/S&W look at the gun? What could cause this type of behavior? If it's operator error (my usual problem), what should I be doing differently?
I've never encountered that with my P99AS, though I'm not even close to your rounds fired count (may 300). Something doesn't sound right. As for bump firing, that usually takes a concerted effort to accomplish in any semi-auto, especially a handgun. I think I'd contact Walther USA and ask their opinion.

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Old 01-16-2011, 05:15 PM   #3
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Can you replicate it with proper training follow-through? (meaning, holding the trigger all the way back until recoil is over and you are back on target)

I'd guess no, there isn't anything to time dropping the striker at the moment of RTB, in fact there is an entire mechanism devoted to making that NOT happen.

First, load up a snap-cap in the chamber and one in the mag, pull the trigger and while still holding the trigger back, rack the slide forcefully ... the striker should not drop when the gun returns to battery. If you don't have snap-caps, shame on you, get some.
Then ... Load two or three rounds, get on a safe backstop, and try the same thing, but with a VERY firm grip on the gun using both hands. Repeat a few times.

It is possible to bump-fire / double-tap a gun with a good trigger and a short reset, and it can be a surprise. I have had a malfunction lead to double-fires in a gun before, and it took a part failure plus some out-of-spec parts, and wasn't replicable in a reliable fashion ... if you can tell it fired two, it probably wasn't automatic, it was damn near imperceptible for me, in fact there was a moment of "damn, I thought there were 10 rounds in that mag, not 7" or something like that.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:10 PM   #4
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while i'm not going to totally discount a problem for now,i would say that,yes,more than likely you are inducing this. this is from a combination of what happens when a pistol recoils,not applying proper trigger control(trigger finger) and a pistol that happens to have a quick reset,..and i have also heard it happen before to new p99 AS owners.

here's what you do. you need to let the reset work in your favor for possible quick follow up shot and not against you.

at the very instant that the trigger breaks(pistol fires),release all the tension from your finger that you just applied to come to the break.i mean instantly. i don't mean that you move your finger forward,i mean that you release ALL of the tension/muscle pressure you just used on your finger while keeping your finger in the same place. you are now at the reset and ready to fire again.

here's what happens when you do this.the instant that you release all tension from your finger,the trigger spring is already applying pressure to the trigger and trying to move it forward. when you use the right technique,you will feel and maybe even hear a "click" and you are right at the reset without any SA pretravel/take-up. believe it or not,this is actually what you want.way too many people are always moving their finger all the way forward which is not conducive to quick follow up shots and may even affect accuracy(because of extra movements that you are adding).

trigger finger control is also important.instead of moving your finger through an ark(as if scratching yourself),which means there's alot of muscles on your finger involvoled,...try only bending you finger at the second knucle while keeping your first knucle perfectly straight but totally loose and placing the trigger at the most sensitive area of your finger pad(just a tiny bit forward of the middle of the first section of your finger). this means that the first two sections of your finger,are the only ones moving straight back and forth and applying no lateral pressure at all. this is how you properly use your trigger finger to fire a pistol which most people do not do.

happy shooting and let us know how it went.
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Old 01-16-2011, 07:12 PM   #5
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forgot to say that i LOVE the quick reset of the p99 AS. love i tell you.
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Old 01-17-2011, 08:58 PM   #6
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Tried Dave's snap cap drill 15 or 20 times; all functions seem normal. In thinking about putting live ammo through the gun, including this past weekend when I tried to find the reset, I have not been able to keep the trigger fully pulled through the recoil, or have not really tried. I did wonder if I was "soft pulling" the trigger (my choice of phrase to hopefully describe perhaps not pulling the trigger completely through the break and maybe riding the reset), but I could not feel the trigger break a second time during any of the bump fires. Jeff at S&W customer service says it sounds like a faulty sear slipping off the striker nose, and he is sending me a shipping label to return the pistol for service. I will try to get by the range and try the live fire version of the snap cap drill before I ship the gun; regardless of whether or not it is faulty, the drill let me feel the trigger reset and I would like to be able to do the same when shooting as it seemed apparent that better trigger control and accuracy would be the result.
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Old 01-17-2011, 09:13 PM   #7
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i can bump fire a 1911 and rifles but that's about it for pistolas. if you can duplicate, then don't do that anymore, if not give them a call if it happens again.
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Old 01-17-2011, 09:21 PM   #8
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I did have a similar issue with my p99c as 9. Only did it once and I've gone through 4-5k rounds. I believe it happened when I had loaded my mags with various ammo trying to cause issues to practice clearing. Some of the rounds shot noticably hotter and I believe resulting in bumping it. Scared the crap out of me for the split second I thought it was going to go full auto for the rest of the mag.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:23 AM   #9
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athens7 if you were getting a sear/striker slip, I'd think that you would find the gun had cycled and decocked but not fired once in a while, if the sear/striker slip occurred when the gun wasn't in battery.

I forgot to ask that above, are you getting mysterious instances of "the gun fired, it picked up a fresh round, but the striker isn't reset" ?

If you have a more private range to head to for testing, it might be nice ... for one thing, you won't have a major malfunction cause a hole in the target holder, and for another thing you won't have a major malfunction causing some ninny to call in the po-po or BATFEIEIO on you for "operating a machine-gun" when you are trying to troubleshoot.

And the "follow-through" i mentioned above is part of "calling the shot" in rifle training, it is not necessarily for normal shooting if you're going for speed. I picked it up from an awesome old Army training film about running the M1 Garand to rifleman standards in WWII ... it is up on archive.org and if you have an hour or two (you'll want to do some rewinding) it is some of the best marksmanship instruction I've ever encountered, just ignore all the bits about stripper clips and it applies to most modern firearms to some degree.
Holding the trigger all the way back is mostly something to concentrate on instead of flinching before the shot, added to "calling the shot" it is as good a training tool as ball & dummy drills to eliminate the flinch (well, to trim it to the minimum involuntary portion after the loud noise)
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:12 AM   #10
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I'd check to be sure the firing pin's not getting stuck forward and slam firing. It's not likely but they're not supposed to bump-fire either.
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