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Old 11-20-2016, 03:33 AM   #21
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Thank you for the list of what may be at fault.

The key is on how precisely the parts fit.

The better the fit the better the results.

It's a truism but it cannot be stressed enough (literally).

If the trigger had been more precisely engineered, the P22 would shame many other handguns, hands down.

The P22's trigger is its greatest weakness (other than the slide breaking! obviously) .

Little rain and lots of sunshine here too.
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Old 11-20-2016, 12:24 PM   #22
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Were it up to me, I'd be happy to send buckets of rain your way. One thing the western part of Oregon has is plenty of rain.

I was in Crete a month and a half or so ago. Great spot; wish I'd had more time. The sunshine was wonderful.
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Old 11-20-2016, 01:36 PM   #23
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Thumbs up

Thanks very much for your good words.

Next time make sure you join us here (vid below).



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Old 11-20-2016, 04:35 PM   #24
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Next time for sure ... and I trust that the next time will come soon. Crete is wonderful.
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Old 11-20-2016, 10:49 PM   #25
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On my old pistol there is 0.012"/.305mm space between the frame and the hammer and the sear. The front arm of the sear that acts to engage the drop safety has a tighter tolerance where it fits in the frame. This appears to indicate that any washers/spacers that might be installed would need to go on the left side of the frame.

With the slide off, when I let the hammer forward the sear wobbles a bit as the hammer hooks engage it. Remember, neither part fits tightly between the frame halves. The entire sear rotates clockwise to the right when viewed from above. The sear also appears to be able to move forward on the left side as the hammer exerts pressure when caught. The fitment of the sear on the sear pin does not appear to be tight and the sear spring is what pushes the part to the left, counterclockwise when there is no pressure from the hammer on it.

It could almost be said that the two parts are self aligning. The hammer spring is much more powerful of course. I don't know how to calculate the pressure of the hammer against the sear. I know it takes 8 lbs of pull at the hole in the hammer, string looped through to cock the hammer. So, self aligning. I'm not sure if that is a good or bad thing on this pistol. And the frame is pretty old....probably 30,000 + rounds. Many tests, disassembled, reassembled dozens of times. Regardless, when the trigger is pulled there is no sidewise movement of the sear or hammer. Only the rotation of the sear until the hammer breaks. I can not see any movement of the sear in relationship to the axis of the sear pin. The hammer is best aligned when against the right side of the frame. This is not a machined slot in a steel frame that holds the parts like in a PP pistol. This is two frame halves of cast zinc held together by one screw at the rear. I don't feel any play between the halves though.

I have squared the sear arm faces. I have squared the hammer hooks and matched the sear arms to the hammer hooks. Removal of dye is uniform. It appears to me there is either play between the sear pin and sear and perhaps where the sear pin rests in the frame. This allows the sear spring to offset the sear a bit and when engaged by the hammer hooks the sear is squared up. ???? At least that is the way it appears. Some videos when I get a chance. Crete, I'm not sure exactly what your hammer is doing when you say it moves as you pull the trigger. But the powerful hammer spring does exert pressure more on one side than the other. In the long term, probably not a good thing with a zinc frame. If the parts are aligned when under pressure I would think that square engagement of the the rear legs of the trigger bar against the sear would rotate it squarely. And if those parts are engaging evenly and squarely then the hammer should be released with no side to side movement. Of course the sear arms and hammer hooks must meet evenly also. These parts are pretty small and must be looked at under magnification.

I can't see that any of these parts are tightly fitted...pins through the sear or hammer, perhaps even into the frame. Spring pressure takes out all of the slack. I'm not seeing a problem when releasing my hammer. A slo motion video might show otherwise. It would seem ideal if all these parts fit with tight tolerances. Perhaps not, perhaps the pistol is designed this way. Perhaps it is 10 years of fooling around with it....like, er....hanging a full gallon of paint on the front of the barrel stabilizer to see if I can stop the muzzle from jumping up. Yep, that did it.....but....the grip went down instead. Hats off to the engineers that can figure out how to eliminate muzzle jump.

I think I am going to work on the engagement and leave the frame tolerance alone. I'm not seeing it play a part in anything just yet. Crete, some time ago you posted a picture of your hammer pin and one end appeared to be really rough. You might have a new pin by now...but that one looked bad. More on how tight these pins fit when I disassemble the pistol to look at engagement angles. M1911
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Last edited by 1917-1911M; 11-21-2016 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 11-22-2016, 01:46 PM   #26
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Good.

That clears up a few things.

The pin in question caused a double whammy setting off tow S&B HV cartridges simultaneously a couple of years ago, which had a catastrophic result on the slide.

The new slide is fine and never had a problem of any kind with it.

The trigger has play. Lots of it. All P22s have trigger play so I am not complaining.

The other P22s I have seen, made 10 years later than mine, also had wobble in the instant the trigger is squeezed and the hammer drops with a clockwise ∞ movement. If yours doesn't do the ∞ you are lucky.

The obvious solution to the issue under discussion here is a very careful squeeze of the trigger so that the bang! will occur when the shooter is not expecting it and an epic follow through, where nothing moves AT ALL after the surprize squeeze and let off.

In short: don't quit the shot because the cartridge was set off by the completed trigger squeeze.
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Old 11-22-2016, 08:37 PM   #27
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The trigger alone is not tightly fitted nor is the trigger bar. The small hole at the front of the trigger bar makes no attempt to control rearward movement of the trigger bar with regard to squareness other than being located in the center of the bar. The rear legs on the trigger bar should hit the bottom legs of the sear squarely. If they don't it might be that the trigger bar is bent or one or both of the rear vertical legs on the trigger bar are crooked.

If you are saying that your hammer moves left or right when the sear engages it then I expect there is a problem with the sear arms or hammer hooks. My hammer does not move at all when pulling the trigger until it is released. Not left, right, rearward or forward. The sear is pretty neutral so it does not allow the hammer to begin to slightly fall as the sear begins to move nor is the hammer pressed rearward. I do have a bit of creep though that I can feel if I pull the trigger very, very slowly....the sear feels exactly like it slips a bit, then grabs hold again right before releasing the hammer. A little faster pull and I don't feel anything. The hooks are still 0.045" tall although I have shortened them considerably. They are certainly not .018" 1911 hook height. I'll work on that but these parts are small, small, small. I'm not sure there is a standard sear/hammer job for the P22. Each one might have to be hand adjusted for those interested.

There could be a problem with engagement even if the sear and hammer hooks were perfect if the frame is damaged where the sear pin or hammer pin fits. I took the pistol apart today. Neither pin fits tight inside of its respective host or the frame halves. Fitment into the frame is pretty shallow, does not have a lot play but does allow the pin to be wobbled a bit in any direction. So I might characterize this as the ends of the pins not snapping into their respective holes on the frame where they are firmly held. They are not firmly held but neither are the holes so large that the pins can be moved about if the pin is held straight out from the frame. I can't tell if there is some type of sleeve installed in the frame halves for the hammer pin. That will require a close look with a very clean pistol. In any event I only see one hole that I would say is a bit sloppy due to wear or something and that is the left side sear pin hole. The metal around the edge of it has been swaged just a bit. Probably need a picture of that. The right side hole has no swaging of the metal.

I really think the pistol relies on spring pressure to align the parts by taking all slack out between the hammer/sear and the pins and the holes in the frame where the pins are located. Perhaps all pistols do. Damage to any of these would allow the pins to sit out of square.

If you are talking about movement of the hand/pistol under recoil....then I have seen that exact same movement in my slo motion photos and I've seen it in other pistols in other hands. That movement seems to be typical of how the hand, wrist, arm, shoulder reacts to recoil. I'm not sure you can do much about that...when shooting off hand. Better stance, better grip......better pistol with less recoil. I think you should work on ideas for making the grip larger on the P22. Fatter and more area to grip. It is pretty skinny even for my small hands.

As far as sear/hammer work I think the sear and hammer hook concept I am working on will be good. I think the parts square up when engaged and I don't see any deviation in square rotation of the sear or hammer as I pull the trigger. Now to get that slippage out of there. M1911
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Old 11-23-2016, 06:13 PM   #28
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This is hard without any real gun smithing tools, a machine shop, a decent camera. I'm not sure that no matter how carefully I adjust these parts....they are just too small to get just so...

Both hooks are overhanging the sear arms upon very close inspection using a camera lense for magnification and an I Phone. I can see them through the mag lense better than I can photo them.

Both hooks look just slightly positive...somewhere between positive and neutral. I can remove the sear spring, hook the tiny sear faces half way up the edge of the hooks and still have a secure hammer. With no sear spring pressure trying to press the sear down. So at least that is good. The magic is between the top of the hammer hooks and the bottom of the trigger sear undercut edge. Those both have to release the hammer at the exact same moment.. The good new is that in 500 rounds since I put this trigger/sear in a few months back there is no rounding of edges....they are still sharp, hammer and sear.

I've measured the pins, the layout of holes on the frame, the radius of the sear, etc. Will put that up later. The sear pin is square on one end. That end goes into the right side plate and fits pretty tightly. The left end is tapered at the end to help get the left side plate aligned upon assembly while the parts are under spring tension. This cold I got in Charleston is killing me. I hate colds.

How to accurately stone a true radius.....hmmmm? How to make sure the bottom of the trigger sear arms match exactly the height of the hammer hooks. ????? No precision stoning tools for the P22 to work with....only bricks. M1911
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Old 11-24-2016, 05:05 AM   #29
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The ∞ wobble appears when the hammer drops entirely, stopping on the firing pin. Not before. Before it is rock solid..

The P22 then "bounces" so very slightly anti-clockwise (from R to L).

That's all I am saying.
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Old 11-24-2016, 09:05 PM   #30
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I think that movement is in your hand and arm from the effort of pulling the trigger and having the hammer break. I'm not sure anyone can drop the hammer on a light weight pistol and have the pistol hold absolutely steady. My hammer, in and of itself does not wobble when hitting the firing pin. I cannot hold the pistol absolutely stable though, unloaded and dropping the hammer. I also can not get exactly the same pull weight each time. Yet. I'm bouncing around over a +/- 4 oz range.

When firing, the recoil acts on the hand, wrist, arm, shoulder all the way to your feet. It is impossible to stabilizer a stout recoil with your hand. This is why engineers work on the pistols to reduce the recoil.

I have gutted the pistol I'm working on. No mag disconnect, no slide stop arm, no hammer strut......I don't need them. This is a SA only 5" pistol with pre and over travel stops. I lowered the hammer hooks to 0.035". I undercut the trigger sear to about 0.020". I put on a tool less tru-radius edge to the sear arms. There is absolutely no creep. Trigger pull is now around 2 lb 13 oz. This is with Hoppes #9 and not the moly powder. Dye removal is uniform but there is no way you can stone these parts as nicely as a guide and machine could.

The trigger pulls back about 1/16" taking up all slack and does not move any further until the hammer drops. I'm not sure I like the weight....it is good but 2 lb is better. Perhaps I just need to get used to it...perhaps the moly will lower it a bit more. I have pictures. Gutting the pistol makes disassembly/reassembly very fast.

I wonder what is the proper way to use a Lyman digital pull gauge. Fast pull, medium pull or very slow pull? M1911
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