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Old 11-11-2016, 09:44 PM   #11
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When I get back and when I get time I'm going to have another look at the pistol. Redouble my efforts on a good trigger job and get everything as close as I can to what I think is correct. Then I'm going to attach my trigger pull gauge and get a few readings....say, 2 lbs or so. Then I'm going to place the pistol in something like a vise, muzzle up, attach a weighted cup...say 1 lb 14 oz and then add #6 shot until the hammer falls. Then I will weight the cup with the added weight. Empty and repeat.. If I can get this to where trigger pull is consistently within 0.0000000000000001 gm.....will you be happy? Probably not...because it will be my pistol and you will be wanting it and you can't have it. M1911
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Old 11-13-2016, 10:55 AM   #12
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Thumbs up Fantastic!

That's great!

As long as we establish what actually works, then anyone interested can experiment.

I am intrigued by this: "...make sure that the bottom of the two trigger bar spring legs aren't digging into the rear of the trigger."

Where exactly am I supposed to look?

You are correct when saying that consistency matters more that the weight it takes to pull the trigger. I can learn consistency when using my match 10m air pistols, which stay on target when the hammer drops on the valve, no prob.

W/the the P22, sometimes the front sight stays put and other times in ends up pointing at the 8 o'clock (low-left) corner of the aiming area (which gives me the creeps, literally).

I am looking forward to your experimentation. I may have to get a new hammer and trigger assemblies to work on (and totally destroy)
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:47 AM   #13
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A really old picture but it shows the entire chain of parts. I examine all components in the fire control linkage. The bottom legs of the trigger spring should not dig into the rear of the trigger as it is pulled. The sides of the trigger should not drag on anything...slightly polish off any offending areas. The trigger must roll smoothly on the trigger pin. The trigger bar cannot drag on anything that it shouldn't...either the top, inside or outside. It has close tolerances regarding fitment against the frame. The magazine should not touch it, the mag disconnect safety should not touch it.

The rear legs should reach the bottom legs of the sear without any interference. All should be very smooth here when pulling the trigger back just a bit. I lube the rear of the trigger and the trigger pin. A pull gauge shows about 6 oz of pull required to move the trigger far enough rearward to make the rear legs touch the sear legs. Inspect for any and all interference.

Next, the sear and the hammer both rotate inside the frame. Make sure they are no unduly dragging on anything nor that they have any sharp edges or flaws sticking out anywhere...inside or outside where they might drag. This includes the retaining pins. The hammer strut pin is too long and sticks out the side of the hammer. If you leave it in...file that pin flush with the sides of the hammer. Make sure the sear spring is installed properly. I actually polish the bottom end where it rests against the frame. The ends of these springs are sharp and can scratch along any surface they rest against. As you compress a spring the ends can move along a surface just a bit....so make sure the end of the spring is polished on the side that drags on something.

It is really looking at the movement of all the components and carefully looking at areas where there can be movement against other parts and where parts can scratch along. The hammer spring can move a bit also against the hammer. Make sure the hammer is smooth where it might slide over the spring 1/32 of an inch. In one of your pictures from a year or so ago the end of your hammer spring looked terrible. Get another one if it still looks that bad. Make sure the sear and hammer pins are in good shape and not rough. Putting them in a drill and filing them down works against you as it increases play. Get new parts if they are in bad shape.

I polish, polish only....the rear legs of the trigger bar and the front of the legs on the sear where the two engage each other. So basically, I've looked at every detail I can think of along the entire lockworks, made sure nothing is digging in, nothing is dragging, everything is in good shape and everything is lubed. Look very carefully at the rear of your polymer trigger where the bottom legs of the trigger spring rest. They move only a very small amount but the ends are sharp and mine scratch and scuff the polymer each time the trigger is pulled. A slight bend to the rear does not hurt their function but gives the bottom of the spring a smooth surface to slide along the trigger. Just a small detail.

The rest of the work is in the sear faces......trigger and hammer. I am not sure I have an ideal profile and am trying to find out more about this. Since no trained gunsmiths have worked on this, we don't have the factory drawings and there are no jigs for this I can only imagine that we can take what has been done for other firearms and try to apply to this one. Again the engagement is very small, angles are critical and the guys with stoning jibs that are infinitely adjustable by fractions of a degree have a large advantage on us. Not to mention parts that fit more precisely in the frame...but I'm confident we can improve the P22 trigger pull. I'm good at figuring out contraptions to keep parts square when stoning.

I'm just not sure if we should be going with a more neutral engagement or a positive tip on the hammer sear where the square face of the trigger sear climbs up it in a still relatively neutral engagement. Neutral meaning that as the sear moves it does not rotate the hammer rearward as it moves toward the break point. But first....all the parts must be put in as good a shape as possible...smooth, no scuffing along, etc. I'm also working without the hammer strut....so, SA pistol only. The trigger re-sets in 1/8" so I have installed an over travel and pre travel stop. The hammer spring is full strength for fast lock time. But I'm in Hilton Head at present and waiting for the moon rise this evening over the Atlantic. Tides are really high according to the news. Hurricane damage looks to be pretty much out of the roads and off the bicycle trails at this point. M1911
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:42 AM   #14
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Many thanks.

Indeed, most of the parts you mentioned are scratched, bent, deformed, out of line, out of whack, skewed and rough.

So far so good.

I am afraid to touch anything (yet), or I will miss out on upcoming matches all the way before Xmas.

On close inspection I realized that despite the above mentioned deformities most everything moves smoothly (as far as I can tell, being inexperienced with such fine technical details).

Where I see an obvious flaw is the hammer spring, which as you mention looks terrible. I have spare but it looks even worse, still.

When the hammer is about to drop it WOBBLES so very slightly, from Right To Left, which is witnessed by the position of the front sight that WOBBLES also and in the same exactly fashion from R to L.

When I shoot carefully the trigger backwards using the entire trigger (index) finger to hug the trigger blade and keeping it nice and snug, PRESTO! no WOBBLE.

What is happening?

As a result during the precision stage of firing 5 LRs in 150 seconds, all is usually well as I get on average 180/200 in each string. Then in the 20 seconds stage (5 LRs shot within the time space of 20 seconds), again all is more or less well with a usual score of 180/200 or even 190/200, which lately is becoming my standard. In other words I shoot a tad better at 20 second than at 150 seconds. Then the trouble begins. In the 10 seconds stage (5 LRs shot within the limited time of just 10 seconds, which can be called Rapid Fire if you like), I struggle to keep all 5 LRs in the black and preferably in the X (the X = 10 ring, which is 2 inches wide, while the 9 ring is 4 inches wide). It happens but it is extremely difficult, due to the concentration (beehive style), of the shots at the 7 or 8 o'clock corner of the target (while aiming at the centre of the target), at a distance of 25m (82 feet), offhand.

It is this Rapid Fire stage that I struggle to tame with counterweights, a better grip, an grip palm rest (that's my latest mod) and as soft ammo as it is available (SK Standard Plus being just fine).
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Old 11-18-2016, 10:15 AM   #15
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Crete, I suggest you do some reading on the Warner true radius jig. There is a Texas gun forum with a long thread on this. It can be found at other sites such as M1911 forum, and a number of other sites. The jig is basically a circle that a 1911 sear fits inside of. The jig has four clearly marked radius distances. You begin with the largest (longest) and move to shorter radii until your sear primary face is uniformily stoned. No more. Then using the same jig the secondary angle is cut.

Several people have taken top of the line "gunsmithed" trigger set ups and tested for uniformity of pull weight. This is the only one that is precisely uniform recording the exact pull each time. Of course this is a 1911 sear....not a P22.

The 1911 hammer face sear is cut 90 degrees and slightly broken at the tip. The true radius system provides a sear face that follows the curvature of the sear rotation so the hammer never moves rearward or drops until released.

Below are some of my takes on what might be done to the sear and hammer hook of a P22. We will have to get into the self aligning/movement of the parts in the P22 as an entirely separate subject. I can shim that out easily enough but one thing at a time. I really doubt the MIM'd sear/hammer are of the quality for thousands and thousands of shots but we will see.

Above is an example of a tru radius P22 sear where the trigger sear had then been undercut to whatever face width the owner wants. The hammer hook height has been reduced and a very slight radius placed on the edge. You can see this set up provides a pretty positive (safe) engagement that is neutral at the working surface of the sear/hammer. The radius at the top of the hammer hook will likely be what controls trigger pull weight. Only one tiny portion of the sear touches the hammer at any time which should eliminate creep. I'm in Savannah today with no pistol so this will have to wait but something to think about. True radius sear face. The yellow line is the radius. The blue line shows more marterial removed from the sear for a thinner sear face height. M1911
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Old 11-18-2016, 05:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crete View Post

When the hammer is about to drop it WOBBLES so very slightly, from Right To Left, which is witnessed by the position of the front sight that WOBBLES also and in the same exactly fashion from R to L.

When I shoot carefully the trigger backwards using the entire trigger (index) finger to hug the trigger blade and keeping it nice and snug, PRESTO! no WOBBLE.

What is happening?
I think this topic will make a good thread in the P22 section. I know exactly what you are talking about. The Texas forum that I referenced is a gun-smithing forum so the guys there for the most part really understand the nuances of this jig or another one and what they are trying to accomplish. I understand it too but only on an intellectual level...not from experience of having half a dozen of the best stoning jigs in my tool set.

Hammer sear fitment in the frame, against the hammer pin, sear pin, out of square spring tension, etc. are another related but entirely different set of concern I would suggest. For example, what is the side to side tolerance of the hammer/sear parts in a 1911, PP pistols, Sig hammer pistols, etc. Does the side of the frame actually act in any manner to guide square movement of the hammer or sear? Or is that job entirely up to a proper pin diameter for the parts to rotate on and an exact hole placement in the frame where the sear/hammer are locked in place? I don't know. But, I can certainly take a look, slip a feeler gauge in there and watch the parts move in slow motion as they are moved.

When I let the hammer forward after carefully squaring up the hammer hooks and sear hooks.....when two parts meet both wobble as necessary to a snug and uniform fit as far as I can tell. I have not watched movement here when lightly engaging the trigger bar arms. If the same occurs....this would seem to negate much of the tuning we can do on the parts. On the other hand...just how square and tight does the sear and hammer sit on a 1911 or PP firearm? I don't know that either. It might boil down to a square bore through the sear and hammer in relation to the hooks and sear face and exactly square holes in the frame where the ends of the pins fit. When the sear and hammer are cocked and under spring pressure....something is going to determine how the parts sit.

Could the pin to frame holes have too much slack and everything still work fine. Perhaps....as long as the pins sat square when pressed in whatever direction the springs and parts push them. You can remove the slide and take a quality feeler gauge with flat leaves and determine what the side play if any is in the P22. You could then make a circular washer type shim out of the proper blade that takes out all but just a bit of this play. Install them as shims on the right side of the frame with the sear and hammer pins installed. Then when the pistol is assembled and lubed neither the hammer nor the sear could wobble side to side. But, is that where the problem is? Or is there even a problem? We will need pictures and videos and measurements.....another thread. M1911
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Old 11-19-2016, 01:28 AM   #17
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That's quite helpful actually. It made me reach for the dentist's loupe and have a close look at what is happening at the hammer sear. It's the hammer sear and the axis it rotates on that seem to be the source of the wobble issue. What acts on the hammer sear? The hammer coil spring. It's one. With one coil the hammer rotates in a zig-zag fashion. That's what. If a second coil was there it would probably equate the hammer sear to stay put on the horizontal axis and move back and forth in a true vertical.

Could that be it?
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:06 AM   #18
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If the hammer was a precision, tight tolerance fit on the hammer pin and each end of the hammer pin was a tight tolerance fit in the frame then the hammer would not be able to wobble, off axis as the sear pressed it rearward even if the sear or spring did not apply uniform pressure on each side. If the parts fit tightly and there was some amount of gap between the frame and the hammer then the hammer might slide sideways but would remain square in its front to rear rotation I would expect.

If fitment has some slop in it then unequal pressure from the trigger bar legs, unequal sear spring pressure and unequal sear arm length could make a sloppy fitting hammer wobble about. I don't have a P22 in hand. With the slide off and the hammer/sear exposed is there are lot of wobble allowed, hammer down. Just grab it and wobble it side to side. Same for the sear. If they wobble on the pin and or if the pin wobbles in the slide holes then we have another challenge to overcome. Unequal spring pressure doesn't help either but would be of less concern with very precisely fitted parts. The sear arm engaging the drop safety adds another source of off to one side pressure. Of course the drop safety can be removed.

I'll have to look at all this when I get back. Shimming might be the only thing that keeps the parts rolling in a true front to rear axis. Perhaps your trigger bar legs aren't engaging the sear squarely either. I'm just not sure how precise the fit is between all these parts and what we might do to tighten them up. If the zinc frame is wearing that will cause difficult to solve issues with regard to squareness of the sear and hammer pins. M1911
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Old 11-19-2016, 10:37 AM   #19
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The two of you always have the most interesting conversations.
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Old 11-19-2016, 08:48 PM   #20
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Thanks Searcher.....how about sending some rain this way. I don't know about Greece....but Bama needs some rain. M1911
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