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Old 02-09-2014, 03:07 PM   #31
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Leroy pm'd me and asked would I whack up his extractor. Sure I said, send it down. I haven't whacked on it yet but it set me to thinking about something now that I had a new extractor from a recent P22 and the fact that Costa got all my regular new ones and some other extra stuff I had laying around. So, I'm thinking this would be a good time to document a few things. I didn't want to go to the trouble of tearing any pistols apart but I wanted to take a better look at these extractors before I put my microscope together.

I also got tired of trying to hold a round on the breech face while holding the extractor and point and shoot Canon camera. So, I super glued a round onto the face of an old breech block S&W had been kind enough to send me for free in the past for experimenting. Above you can see how I shoved the round up against the top of the recess and centered it. The real way to do this would be to chamber a round, stick some super glue on the breech face, close the slide and add some weight through the muzzle to fasten on the bullet as it would sit in the chamber. But, that was too much trouble, besides, there is really no way of knowing exactly where a spent case might sit on the breech face just prior to hitting the ejector. So, this is the way I'm doing this. The case measures 0.224" and is a Winchester Super x.



Next I needed a way to attach extractors in their proper location. I did this by inserting the retaining pin through the extractor and then seating it in the recess provided for it on the right side of the breech block. A rubber band completed the fastening process. A double check of everything indicated that the extractor was squarely seated. Note, the roll pin for the extractor is larger on the bottom end. This pinches it into the much harder extractor without enlarging the hole in the zinc slide. At least that is my take on it. Perhaps it goes the other way so it can't fall out the bottom. Walther doesn't provide us with this type of detail. So, I just have to make it up..as I go. Probably should take a closer look at this one day.



Above is an original, stock extractor showing the large gap that seems to be the culprit regarding spent cases flying everywhere but where you want them to go. Much has been written about reducing the gap between the face of the extractor and the front of the rim. Tests have shown that a lesser gap does indeed correct ejection direction to a consistent direction.



But what is this? This is leroy's new style extractor fitted to the breech block. This is the newer style breech block by the way. There is still a huge gap. If you read back in my assessment thread on my BC P22Q model you will read that while the pistol looked great it was the worse ejecting P22 I had fired in a while. Hot cases once again hit me in the face. So, now this makes me wonder if Walther has shortened the previously tighter tolerance extractor or if there is that much variation in which mold makes which extractor? I will hammer on this tip later and break it....er,,, I mean peen it and see if I can close that gap a bit.

As you can see both extractors are all the way against the side of the case. They are not going to move further inward unless the case moves off center. Hopefully by then the spent case is on its way out of the pistol.

I'll take some pictures of a VQ extractor installed the same way and see what it looks like. Other folks have my 1DogFish extractors so I can't picture them at present. The rim above measures 0.042" in thickness which is on the thicker side of .22 rims I've measured. Other rounds run from 0.038" up to 0.042". But rim thicknesses vary even in a 50 round box. The gap between the new extractor and the front of the rim is 0.032". And, as you can see is almost as wide as the original extractor. No wonder my new pistol was hitting me in the face. I guess this is what MGMike is talking about when suggesting that you can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. I any event I will picture what peening can do to reduce the gap, how a VQ sits and talk to the machinist down the street about all of this including the breech block mod on a genuine milling machine. M1911



Peening is slowly reducing the gap. I need a smaller hammer with the new anvil I am using and one has to wonder how strong peened metal is. The steel in the extractor is very hard and brittle when it comes to peening so I have to go slow. Many light taps....then right when you get to the quitting point the problem is to stop.....and not give it one more whack.



Which brings us to the VQ extractor. A very nice extractor but they also did not reduce the gap enough. I realize a round slides up the face of the breech block at a slight angle and you don't want the rim to be pinched even though the extractor is spring loaded....however, I've run a few 10,000 rounds through some much tighter tolerance extractors with no issues at all which brings me to something that is long over due......just how well do those VQ real steel extractors peen??? One way to find out.



The VQ extractor peens quite nicely and seems to be much more malleable. I actually hit it pretty hard a few times and nothing broke. The circular undercut actually seems to help the tip give as it is peened and knocked inward a bit. I will work on this some more but right now it is 12:30 pm and I need to go to work before the boss fires me.........uh,.....wait....I am the boss. Good, I just fired myself. Think I will go do some shooting.
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Last edited by 1917-1911M; 02-10-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:57 PM   #32
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No good news from the machinist. Machining is cost prohibitive.....so is the machinery. Need a surface grinder with a magnetic chuck for the breech block and some other $20K machine for this and that. Back to the old files and bricks I guess.....M1911
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Old 02-11-2014, 01:52 PM   #33
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Slo motion of stock VQ extractor Let's see if the peened one works any better. Will make a video soon. Also of how leroy's performs before shipping back. The Walther one is much harder to peen without braking the tip as the metal is brittle and there is less supporting steel under the tip. The original is easier to peen. Might do that one to. Should document ejection direction with that one in my pistol too....stock vs peened. M1911

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Old 02-15-2014, 06:19 PM   #34
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OK, some videos. RGB and various extractors, 10 rounds. Canon SX280HS slo mo. Can't figure out how to work GoProHero 3+ in slo mo.... M1911



An original, square cut extractor with the large gap.



Ejection of the same extractor after a minor amount of peening to reduce the distance from the extractor tip to the front of the cartridge rim.



Pay attention. Don't do this. Can you see what is wrong before I even fire the pistol. First time I've ever done this. Glad I have an O ring in there. No damage but I always wondered what would happen if a pistol was fired like this with no buffer.



Video of Leroy's stock, new style extractor with the large gap. It isn't performing much better than the original square cut. Will post videos of his extractor function tomorrow after peening it and a video of the whacked on VQ extractor I've been messing with. Got to get Leroy's back in the mail to him. I know he is going through withdrawals.



Viedo of Leroy's peened new style extractor. If you want your extractor to cause the case to be strongly ejected to the right, tighten the tolerance between the extractor tip and face of the rim. I have had some so tight in the past that the case was thrown 30' out to the right. After shooting in a booth and having spent cases bounce everywhere due to their velocity I tamed them down a bit. The cases above are being thrown 6' to 8'. How far they are thrown isn't the issue. If you compare the stock videos you will see cases thrown back at my head, up, left, forward, on my hand, etc. All of that is what you do not want. If your cases routinely eject 16" to the right....that is great. My LCP throws them straight up, on top of my head and slightly to the left. Not much in favor of that, it is 100% reliable or has been for 4,000 rounds but I haven't figured out or really attempted to assess what is going on there. But I bet the extractor plays a big role in it. Remember on the P22 the extractor does not extract the spent case, blow back gasses take care of that but it is obvious the extractor plays a large part in ejection direction.


I've noticed some of these videos take a while to start rolling. PB must be busy.

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 02-16-2014 at 02:31 PM. Reason: add videos
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Old 02-15-2014, 11:14 PM   #35
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Don't know if it's me or what but I cannot view any of your photos. PB is telling me you have moved the pics
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:49 AM   #36
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I can see them OK. This ...

Here's how to see the pictures in the threads

... maybe?
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Old 02-16-2014, 09:39 PM   #37
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DING DING DING.....searcher451 had the answer...
but it seems to me that would have been the default
thank you agaon
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