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Old 03-23-2013, 09:16 PM   #1
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1917-1911M .38
Trigger Job....any experts here?

My new P22 has a 4 lb 4 oz SA trigger after all the polishing I did. The sear/hammer cocking notch is stock but polished. A stock Ruger is 2 lb 4 oz and an old P22 is about the same. I'm sure the springs have weakened in both over the years. Any ideas on this. What I wonder is....do the parts have adequate Rockwell hardness to hold a fine edge?



Above is the fitment of my stock hammer notch and sear. It seems I have quite a bit of positive engagement with the hammer and sear all the way down. This is where the hammer actually presses the sear further into the notch. This is the safest adjustment and will rotate the hammer slightly rearward upon pulling the trigger. Neutral is where the face of the sear and face of the hammer notch are flat against one another. This creates a lot of creep. A negative sear is one that slants away from the hammer which would allow the hammer hook to slide down the face of the sear. This one is not safe. The positive fitment above seems excessive. Several gunsmith articles I've read recommend that the hammer hook only reach half way down the face of the sear........of course 90% of what you read about are 1911 sears. lol Every firearm has a sear. There doesn't seem to be much on Walthers that I can find except GSP and some target one and they are so complicated they don't even compare to the simple P22. Anyone have a good smithing book on sear engagement, especially Walthers?

The position of the sear has to be looked at as it rotates across the top edge of the hammer hooks and not just sitting as above. Initial trigger pull will rotate the sear up, press the hammer back a bit........then the important part.....how does the sear fit against the hammer as it approaches release. Is the above positive, negative or neutral. I need some good pictures. I bet MG Mike and some others are up to speed on some of this although I'm sure he would think this is not worth the effort on this pistol.



Shortened hammer hooks to match top of sear, raised sear for the above picture of hammer resting on edge of sear. Notice in top picture how much they overhang the sear. I need a better camera, better eyes and a German PP or PPK. I can't tell is this is positive, negative or neutral. There is no creep at all.


Looking for any advice. Not recommending anyone else dig into this. But, this is the kind of stuff I enjoy doing. I could weaken the hammer spring. 8 lb new...at 6.5 lb you will get light strikes. The one in the old gun is at 7 lb now. This is recording the amount of pull it takes to cocker the hammer. I say cocker because the proper word gets four stars.

Any good internet links....or am I on my own? M1911
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Last edited by 1917-1911M; 03-25-2013 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:32 PM   #2
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I should have called this " In Search of the 2 lb Trigger"... This is going to be hard to accomplish. So hard, I went back with a fresh battery to check the old P22. 2 lb 14 oz. Not cleaned. Well, that is close and no effort was made to reach 2 lb other than the usual spit and polish.

The new gun....it takes 6 oz to 7 oz to pull the tirgger against the trigger spring only. Even more as I continue to wind the spring but that is complicated by running into the sear and it's spring. Mine currently takes 1 lb and 10 oz to wind the trigger spring and rotate the sear out of the way of the hammer....no hammer spring installed. This of course is all very smooth. To reduce trigger pull impacted by these springs the trigger bar spring will have to be over wound just a bit to reduce its pressure while still allowing 100% function. Then the sear spring will have to be over wound to weaken it a bit but still function 100% also. Still working on sear and hammer fitment. Have a positive sear at present which is safe but actually presses the hammer rearward a bit before breaking.


Off to get a jewlers loupe so I can see what is going on. These parts are tiny and my eyeballs aren't too good after the big oak limb hit. M1911

2 lb trigger.....looking pretty doubtful.



You can at least see fitment pretty good on a P22, it isn't hidden with the slide off.



You can even remove the left side of the frame for a better look. Can't do this on many pistols. You have to have a jig with the correct size pins for looking at fitment.

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 03-25-2013 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:06 PM   #3
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A little weakening of the trigger bar spring ( overwinding, just a bit too much) and the pull drops from 6 to 7 oz to 2 oz. Weakening the sear spring just a bit ( there is no scientific method for this except trial and error and the final trial won't be until a lot of shooting is done) anyway 1 lb 10 oz of pull to release the sear....no hammer spring installed, has dropped to 1 lb 2 0z. 1/2 lb trigger pull reduction....hammer spring not installed. Pulling the hammer back to SA requires 6 lb 10 oz of pull, down from 8 lbs. I wound it a little tighter to weaken it a bit. New ones are really stiff.

Pistol back together. The trigger spring is just a little too light. 20% of time no DA. Turn pistol over....use a little gravity...100%. Will have to fix that next time around. Trigger pull is right at 3 lb. Varies 1 oz up or down. Haven't fired the pistol to see if the sear reliably catches. Right now it is back in the safe, hammer cocked, thinking about how it should get down to 2 lbs. The trigger is very good, much better than 4 lb 4 oz.

Parts buffed on 2,000 grit emery. Didn't get out the Dremel. Don't know if any polishing compound would help or not. Foam ear plugs sure make good buffers for dropping the hammer. Just stick one in the slot just behind the firing pin. The hammer left a good indentation on a spent round. Will test fire later.

Have a good rest of the weekend everyone. Can't let this thread go without one more pic.



The top of the expanded tabs on the mags press up the mag disconnect. The bottom catch on the steel mag lock. I like to polish them both with some 600 to 1500 grit emery paper or polishing stick. Don't file them down.....just polish them so they don't scratch anything. M1911

Last edited by 1917-1911M; 03-24-2013 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:20 PM   #4
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Checking tonight.... 8 oz to compress the trigger spring all the way to sear drop.....hammer strut disengaged.

13.7 oz to compress the trigger spring and the sear spring all the way to the rear with the hammer held back by thumb. The other 2+ lbs must be in the sear/hammer notch fitment. Haven't worked on that yet other than buffing. Don't know exactly what to do there. Hope some others chime in on trigger pull and age of pistol. M1911
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:51 AM   #5
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Took some careful measurements tonight and this is what my hammer/sear fits like. I have another one where the sear is flush with the hammer hook. Neither has been modified except on this one I lowered the hammer above the sear..dashed line, didn't change the angle of anything. The other pistol is old and has a slightly lower trigger pull. Neither creeps. I wonder what is the intended design here???? From what little I know the one above is the correct fit....a flush hammer/sear usually has creep. The moly powder may be stopping that. Comments, ideas..???? M1911
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Old 03-31-2013, 02:28 AM   #6
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Oops, in search of the 2 lbs trigger I decided to make sure the end of the sear was square, then change the 103 degree stock angle to 93 degrees. Hopefully this would lower the trigger pull while keeping the pistol safe. Above I created a very unsafe angle. The sear could ride up the face of hammer and accidentally fire. You don't want to be less than 90 degrees from my limited understanding. And, if you have moly powder on your hands you will drop your digital camera, apparently Canon makes pretty durable ones.



93 degrees is what I was aiming for. So, back to the stone for a little more careful stoning.




Not to take anything this pistol throws at me I began an effort to reach the 2 lb hammer. Everything is polished; rear of trigger bar legs that engage sear, bottom legs of sear where the bar engages, trigger spring weakened to 3 oz of trigger pull against it alone, sear spring weakened a bit, 8 lb hammer spring weakened to 6 lb 10 oz. Stock 103 degree sear/hammer angle has been re-stoned to a 93 degree angle. The pistol reassembled, lubed with moly and the trigger pull is now 1 lb 4 oz. This is a bit too light..but sure feels good. I can't force the hammer forward with my thumb when cocked, I can't shake, bang, tap, beat on a piles of books and make the hammer trip. How it will function when shooting is another matter. First I will shoot tomorrow at my range and measure trigger pull. Then I will put in another new sear spring...measure that. Then a stock hammer spring, measure that. I'm still aiming for 2 lbs. Before beginning work on the sear/hammer but after weakening the springs trigger pull was 3 lbs. Lyman digital. I'll shoot some tomorrow and see how it functions. Better safe than sorry. Pictures of process above and no I don't have a sear or hammer jig. Just have to work carefully, check for squareness, assemble, photo, blow up where I can really see it. 6x magnifying loupe helps some but isn't powerful enough.

Walther didn't send me those classified sear hammer drawings. They knew I'd post em I guess. This is work on a couple of critical components and can create an unsafe firearm. So, let me get this sorted out before anyone else might dig into it. M1911
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Last edited by 1917-1911M; 03-31-2013 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:09 PM   #7
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Well, all's well that ends well. No pistol parts were destroyed in the making of this thread and more importantly....no parts were lost or left over.



Put the correct sear spring back in, assembled the pistol. Above is the 3 pull avg. There is a big creep at 1 lb 10 oz. After that be ready for just a little more pull for it to break. Almost like a two stage trigger. The break is very sharp and clean but at this weight....you don't really feel it much. What I mean is...you feel the creep then just a small amount of increase pull drops the hammer. After the creep....be on target. I'll have to decide if I like this or not and how well it holds up. In the meantime I am going to order a Brownell sear and hammer jig. I will say the hardness of the hammer was pretty impressive. I was thinking it might be softer. I did a Rockwell hardness test one time of a bunch of P22 parts but don't remember them anymore. Old thread somewhere on the net and a P22 somewhere with indentations in various parts.

Old foam ear plugs make great snap caps....



Pistol back together. Originally this pistol did not have any trigger over travel. After the mods...it did. So I added a overtravel stop. This is very similar to the amount required on my '09 pistol which my sister has borrowed and has no intention of returning. Removal of material from the hammer notch and sear lets the hammer move forward/up when cocked. My previous efforts to free the slide from the cocked hammer were undone.....but very barely so. The cocked hammer now drags very lightly under the breech block. I'll save that for another day.

So what is next? See how I like this set up, see how the trigger pull and sear/hammer work holds up, see if the 6lb 10oz hammer spring keeps giving reliable firing pin strikes or if I need to install a new 8 lb spring, polish the hammer face to clear the bottom of the breech block. I will be the only one firing this pistol for a while. Now to go do some shootin. M1911
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:13 PM   #8
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You are doing good work on this, my friend. One can only hope that the engineering Waltherites in charge will take a good look and fix the issues for future generations, seeing as how the P22 continues to be the company's No. 1 best-selling pistol.
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by searcher451 View Post
You are doing good work on this, my friend. One can only hope that the engineering Waltherites in charge will take a good look and fix the issues for future generations, seeing as how the P22 continues to be the company's No. 1 best-selling pistol.
Hey, I'm doing my part. Not sure if I'm helping or not or just causing a lot of confusion. The latter probably. The 2 lb trigger pull would be too light for the general public in my opinion. I'll settle for some properly polished trigger bar ears. Now to get my hands on one of those new Zinc PPK/S models. Mark should send me one....that's what I'm thinking. M1911
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:13 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by 1917-1911M View Post

... MGMike ...would think this is not worth the effort on this pistol.

...
Absolutely and positively correct. But I do immensely enjoy your drawings.

M

P.S. An excellent article illustrating the principles of hammer/sear geometry appeared in the February 1972 issue of Guns & Ammo, written by one Lewis K. Davis.

But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.

No, there is not one specifically on the P22. He didn't waste the time...
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