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Old 03-31-2013, 09:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MGMike View Post
Absolutely and positively correct. But I do immensely enjoy your drawings.

M

P.S. An excellent article illustrating the principles of hammer/sear geometry appeared in the February 1972 issue of Guns & Ammo, written by one Lewis K. Davis.

But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.

No, there is not one specifically on the P22. He didn't waste the time...
Thanks MGMike, I will look for those. There is precious little on the net that I could find regarding sear work....with exception of the 1911. That pretty much seems to be the beginning and end of sear work. I knew we had some experts around. M1911
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:04 PM   #12
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After shooting this weekend the pistol was 100% and the uncleaned, un-relubed trigger now has a 2 lb 4 oz. pull. Still has the same creep. The over travel JB Weld was adjusted for very little over travel at the time of installation and hasn't changed. Not too important on the P22 but my carry has the same over travel set up and that one isn't set as tight tolerance wise. When I pull the trigger on that one.....I want it working. It too tested 100% this weekend.
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by MGMike View Post

But the very best published source for anyone wanting to understand and perform trigger work are Jerry Kuhnhausen's incomparable shop manuals, particularly his two volumes on the M1911. They are chock full of dimensioned drawings, and these manuals really are in a class by themselves. This is not information one will find free on the internet; one must (gulp!) buy the books.
Oh yeah, they are there in pdf format. Mr Kuhnhausen's information on the 1911 is absolutely amazing. He left out one thing I wanted to know though. How prezackly the slide serrations are cut. I am reworking an old 1911....the works, will need hammer, sear, barrel, bushing, extractor, links, pins. I am finding that re-filing the slide notches is a bit tricky though and can't seem to find the right file. It doesn't seem to be a 90 degree cut set on an angle or a triangular file. I'm a member at 1911 org and those guys really dig into the 1911s also.

I was going to have my slide re-rolled but the fellow that did that for $3 per letter passed away. I wonder what happened to his tools? I wouldn't mind having them. His crew did beautiful work and somehow he had collected original roll dies and prancing horse stamps. He was an expert from what I could see on correct polish and blueing for the various years of the M1911.

I think I will sum up Jerry's info regarding the 1911 sear and as it might apply somewhat, very loosely and kinda to the P22 and what might be done to the design there following his excellent guide. He even knows the proper terminology for sear and hammer surfaces. Good things there and good information. If you have an interest in 1911s....this is the guy. Thanks again Mike.


Can't find any links to the '72 article though. M1911
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Old 06-22-2013, 10:12 PM   #14
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Working on the sear/hammer hooks lets the hammer come forward as you move the hooks rearward or shorten the sear.....even with minute amounts of material removal. This in turn undoes my previous work on the bottom of the breech block and safety drum. The hammer is lightly dragging again. That is fine, the pistol runs 100% but I decided to rework the sear just a bit since it had a bit of creep in it.

While studying all this sear geometry and especially on the M1911 which is what almost 100% of sear links are about........I came across an interesting thread at Pro 1911. These guys are all gunsmiths and while discussing original designs, modified designs, how a 1911 hammer hook should be squared, hook height, jigs for sear primary face, where to start for squaring the face and then where to cut the secondary angle...what was safe, how to know when you passed that point. In one of the drawings explaining all of this there was a CAD drawing showing the geometry in detail....then a light bulb went off in one of the guys head and he developed a true radius jig for stoning the primary face to the true curve of the existing radius. Brownells now sells them for $60. He stoned a number of sears for the other guys and turned their pistols for them. Everyone was duly impressed...kind of a fool proof method.

So, I made one for the P22 and then undercut the bottom edge. The creep is gone, the trigger is very smooth with a sharp release. The problem is the weight dropped from 2 lb 4 oz to 1 lb 10 oz. The trigger is safe, can't make it fail. Actually it takes pulling the trigger. I will shoot this awhile, order a couple of new hammers, sears, sear springs and hammer springs and refine my efforts.

I did make a drawing to scale of the layout of the hammer pin, sear pin, hammer and sear. I measured everything carefully. Will post that too. Hope you guys have as much fun fooling with your P22 as I do. Was also digging into my LCP in regard to some problems cropping up with the extractor hooks breaking on some. Mine has 3,000+ rounds and not one issue so I was trying to document how a 100% pistol looked, ammo to extractor fit etc. Came across an odd situation in that the extractor tip holds the round tightly in the chamber by pressing on the slanted portion of the rim rather than the valley in from of the rim. This causes a large gap to exist between the rear of the cartridge and the breech face. This doesn't seem right. Picture below. M1911



Fully locked slide and barrel, LCP has a browning lock, but notice the position of the extractor hook on the round and the gap between the rear of the round and the breech face. The round is fully chambered. I tried several different types of ammo and all fit the same. Kinda weird I thought. MGMike might be able to shed some light on this. For some reason he knows far too much...I haven't figured out where he is coming from but like I say....He knows far too much about firearm manufacture, ammunition, the problem with general study on just one pistol where variances may differ slightly from firearm to firearm. He might be one of the old Walther engineers and fitters from about 1930....
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:45 AM   #15
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1917-1911M,

Q1: How is the extractor behavior affecting the trigger pull weight?

Q2: Have you proposed to CARL WALTHER GmbH (via Daniel) about making and offering a 2Lb. trigger as an optional extra?

A 2lb trigger and a little practice could turn a P22 into a Match model, in which case sales will increase two-fold as a cheap match pistol alternative in these financial meltdown Times.
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Old 06-23-2013, 12:19 PM   #16
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1917-1911M,

Q1: How is the extractor behavior affecting the trigger pull weight?

Q2: Have you proposed to CARL WALTHER GmbH (via Daniel) about making and offering a 2Lb. trigger as an optional extra?

A 2lb trigger and a little practice could turn a P22 into a Match model, in which case sales will increase two-fold as a cheap match pistol alternative in these financial meltdown Times.
I'm not sure the extractor plays any part in regard to fire control components. What have you got in mind? The only thing I've noticed over the years regarding the extractor is that when the slide closes and the extractor tip is pressed against the right side of the chamber.....any lateral play in slide to frame fitment is take out on the left side as the extractor causes the slide to be pressed to the right. Which, is why I see a lot of pictures of the rear sight adjusted slightly to the left and not centered on the top of the slide. At least that is my thought on it.

Hammer/sear......????? Not too many ideas there.

Daniel asked me to keep him up to date on my sear/hammer work. The problem here is there are too many variables, all I can perhaps accomplish is a concept that works. As you are aware, change one part....you change the functional relationship of about half a dozen other parts.

For example.....every new trigger spring I've ever measured requires 8 lb of pull on my Lyman digital when I loop a string through the hammer hole and pull the hammer until it is cocked. The gauge senses this as a trigger drop and works quite nicely.

Then there is the issue of over winding the trigger spring to weaken it. I have found that once over wound...you cannot unwind and have it return to an 8lb spring. There might be some heat treatment but this is beyond my knowledge. All I can say is that a just under 7 lb spring is one where you over wind it, reinstall, and with the hammer all the way down, sear deactivated but in place and with the rear of the hammer spring against the rear of the hammer, the long leg if placed inside the frame will lightly press against the inside of the frame, very lightly. I have nothing to duplicate that except careful trial and error.

2 lb trigger an option? I can't even get em to polish the trigger bar ears properly. I did sent all the information I developed on the extractor to VQ and asked them to make us some extractors...and they did. Probably the most likely source would be Wolff making some springs. I contacted them years ago...when the springs were breaking. They weren't interested. I would really like to see a loop hammer spring developed for the P22 similar to the SR22 spring. That would eliminate the sharp spring sticking out the rear of the pistol and I think put a more even spring pressure against the hammer instead of off center and on one side as the present hammer spring does. I'm not an engineer though, just seems it would be a better set up with two coils doing the work which would place less stress on both as opposed to one coil handling the whole load. Same for the sear spring.

I'll put up some pictures of sear work concept.... Cheers. M1911
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:36 PM   #17
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I'm retiring.....my pistol smithin pretty much sucks. So does my shootin.



10 round groups from 21' RGB..... In between being old and shaky and can't see anymore due to something...perhaps my diabetes...as usual, didn't hit the bulls eye even once. Somewhere in shooting a 100 to 150 rounds the trigger went south....big delay between pull and hammer dropping. Shots started going everywhere. Like I said, when you work on one part...you affect the operation of other parts. What the heck, hammer won't release properly...feels really gritty....then I noticed that my JB weld over travel stop was the problem. Filed that off and things went back to my normal crummy shootin. I need a red dot on this thing. How are you supposed to see the rear sight, front sight and target?

Oh yeah, sitting in an easy chair...I guess that counts for off hand, at least I wasn't resting on something and I did have my eyes closed to even it out. Anyway, trigger pull with dirty pistol was still 1 lb 10 oz. I'm thinking about taking up rifle shootin from 21'. Bet I can group then. M1911
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Old 06-23-2013, 09:05 PM   #18
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Hey Crete, how about you putting up some off hand groups at 21'. Show me how its done. M1911
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Old 06-24-2013, 03:40 AM   #19
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1917-1911M,

Twenty-one feet, or 7 meters, shooting?

I have never done it.

I only shoot 82 foot (25m) targets.

I don't see the point of testing anything at 7m other than sighting-in a red dot optical sight or laser sight.

IMPORTANT: The aiming is never done by placing the rear sight and the front sight in focus (nevermind the target). It is impossible. End of story. Parallax takes over and messes things up.

The trick is to look (with both eyes open wide), at the front sight only. Concentrate at the tip of the front sight and vaguely align that with the rear notches and let the target be fuzzy/hazy -- not in focus.

Only the edge of the front sight ought to be in sharp focus and placed at approximately the same aiming area every time. This is the only known method I am aware of that eliminates parallax (which is the chief cause of inaccuracy with open/iron sights).

Also, hold the pistol comfortably so as to roughly stay on the aiming area as long as possible (this is commonly known as follow-up-the-shot), after the shot is fired. Just freeze while squeezing the trigger and allow it to jump on its own while keeping it there. It is easier to do than to describe here with words.

The target stays blurred. Period.

The rear sight is just a rough guide. Period.

The top edge of the front sight (approx. 5mm max. in dia.), is everything. EVERYTHING. It is as important as trigger control and then some.

Back to your post; I like this line:


1917-1911M: "I would really like to see a loop hammer spring developed for the P22 similar to the SR22 spring. That would eliminate the sharp spring sticking out the rear of the pistol and I think put a more even spring pressure against the hammer instead of off center and on one side as the present hammer spring does."

Yes! That's what Daniel needs to ask the Walther P22 designers to work on.

Last edited by Crete; 06-24-2013 at 03:45 AM.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crete View Post
1917-1911M,

Twenty-one feet, or 7 meters, shooting?

I have never done it.

I only shoot 82 foot (25m) targets.

I don't see the point of testing anything at 7m other than sighting-in a red dot optical sight or laser sight.
.
My 2 Pf...

This forum caters to sport and defensive shooters. With handguns, a target shooter needs to be proficient at 25 yds or m or even 50 yds or m, but 7 yds is an ideal distance for proficiency in defensive shooting. It's what even the FBI uses for training. There can be major differences in POA/POI between target distances and self-defense distances, so it can be useful to know how your gun/ammo combo will perform at different distances. Personally, I don't spend my time shooting my target pistols at 7 yds, but I also don't shoot my carry pistol at 25.

If you shoot a potential bad guy who is 25 yds away from you then you're not defending yourself, and you're probably going to jail.
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