volquartsen extractor issues

[ans1215]

as the title says i just put one on my p22, and now it has anywhere from 3-5 fte's per magazine, anyone else have this issue?

btw, im using cci mini mags, the firearm is about 4 months old and i believe i have around 3000 rounds through it

[Sc0tt]

sure you got the spring in right? pics would help.

how clean is the gun?

[bigfatdave]

Check for proper assembly
check for foreign material
post a picture of the extractors laid flat side by side, someone might spot an irregularity

Failing all that, call Volquartsen ... they have good CS, I'd imagine VS would cheerfully send you a replacement if you knew what was causing the problems

[1917-1911M]

Failure to extract or failure to eject or both? fte The extractor has nothing to do with extraction of a spent case on a blowback .22. Blowback gasses blow the spent case out of the chamber with sufficient force to cycle the slide, cock the hammer and bounce the rim off of the ejector. Anyone that doesn't believe this only has to remove the extractor and fire the pistol.

If the cases aren't blowing out of the chamber I would examine the cases for cracking and the chamber for dirt which is trapping the case. A round should freely fall into or out of a clean P22 chamber. M1911

[ans1215]

the gun is clean, theres no foreign objects, the spring is in correctly, theres no binding anywhere, the brass easily falls in and out of the barrel without any force, the gun is now with the gunsmith, but i did lay the extractors side by side, and the factory extractor is longer on the "hook"(the part that grabs the edge of the casing pulling it out of the barrel) part of it. i didnt have any problems firing it, but if you put a loaded magazine into the gun and operate the slide several times ejecting the ammunition every now and then(1 in 3 or 4 tries) the extractor will pull the round about 75% of the way out of the barrel and thats it. the round then comes free of the extractor and jams with the bullett part of it in the barrel and against the next round coming up from the magazine, when i get it back i'll post pics

[bigfatdave]

i didnt have any problems firing it, but if you put a loaded magazine into the gun and operate the slide several times ejecting the ammunition every now and then(1 in 3 or 4 tries) the extractor will pull the round about 75% of the way out of the barrel and thats it.

so ... the problem only exists during manual extraction of live rounds? That isn't as bad as during live fire, although it still matters enough if you consider extracting a dud or needing to clear the gun for a cold range.
(it isn't quite into the "well, stop doing that" range)

How about the cutout next to the breech that the extractor claw sits in while the gun is in battery? Something in there could prevent the claw from hooking on to the rim of the round.

i did lay the extractors side by side, and the factory extractor is longer on the "hook"(the part that grabs the edge of the casing pulling it out of the barrel) part of it.

So could a dud extractor from VQ, if the claw was too short for some reason. I seem to remember that the big improvement of the VQ extractor was that it was closer to the boltface and had a better tip shape, I don't remember if it is supposed to be shorter, longer, or identical to the factory extractor claw in size, I'm assuming 1917-1911M knows that, if not I'll pull my VQ extractor and try to dig out the factory extractor, and take some pictures on graph paper or something for scale.

the brass easily falls in and out of the barrel without any force

well, that rules out a burr or piece of crud in the chamber holding on to the rounds, probably

[ans1215]

Originally Posted by bigfatdave

How about the cutout next to the breech that the extractor claw sits in while the gun is in battery? Something in there could prevent the claw from hooking on to the rim of the round.

i checked that, all was clear, ill be getting it back this evening from the gunsmith, i damaged a roll pin and hes just putting a new one in since i couldnt find the right size at a hardware store, ill take pics of house the rounds get stuck and post them

[1917-1911M]

Actually I was thinking an extraction or ejection issue when firing. Hand cycling is nothing like firing. When hand cycling the extractor is the part that pulls the cartridge out of the chamber. The reason you have problems with the P22 when manually ejecting is due to two things. One, the face of the breech is open and does not hold the rim in place. It can simple fall away from the extractor or off the face of the breech altogether.

In that case, the extractor won't pull it back far enough to hit the ejector. The second part of the problem is the design of the extractor. There is too much play between the the extractor tip and the rim. Both of these issues are also the reason for poor ejection direction. If the rim was better encased on the breech face and the extractor had a shorter pivot where it could clamp the rim against the breech face then ejection would be perfect....like it is on my pistol with a 1DogFish extractor. Take a look at how remington and Ruger work their extractors and you will see the difference. You will also see the new SR22 exhibits very consistent ejection direction, even with the last round.

Walther has been told how to resolve this. Same for several other components. I sent the specs to VQ and requested that they make us some extractors. Unfortunately, they left too large a gap between the extractor face and the breech face too. Open breech face where the rim can slip off and too much play between the rim and extractor is the entire problem here. I have a VQ extractor too. M1911

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...d.php?t=222448

Extractor thread, history, ejection discussion, solution, 1DogFish and VQ, pictures.

[ans1215]

Originally Posted by bigfatdave

so ... the problem only exists during manual extraction of live rounds? That isn't as bad as during live fire, although it still matters enough if you consider extracting a dud or needing to clear the gun for a cold range.
(it isn't quite into the "well, stop doing that" range)

How about the cutout next to the breech that the extractor claw sits in while the gun is in battery? Something in there could prevent the claw from hooking on to the rim of the round.


So could a dud extractor from VQ, if the claw was too short for some reason. I seem to remember that the big improvement of the VQ extractor was that it was closer to the boltface and had a better tip shape, I don't remember if it is supposed to be shorter, longer, or identical to the factory extractor claw in size, I'm assuming 1917-1911M knows that, if not I'll pull my VQ extractor and try to dig out the factory extractor, and take some pictures on graph paper or something for scale.


well, that rules out a burr or piece of crud in the chamber holding on to the rounds, probably

Originally Posted by 1917-1911M

Actually I was thinking an extraction or ejection issue when firing. Hand cycling is nothing like firing. When hand cycling the extractor is the part that pulls the cartridge out of the chamber. The reason you have problems with the P22 when manually ejecting is due to two things. One, the face of the breech is open and does not hold the rim in place. It can simple fall away from the extractor or off the face of the breech altogether.

In that case, the extractor won't pull it back far enough to hit the ejector. The second part of the problem is the design of the extractor. There is too much play between the the extractor tip and the rim. Both of these issues are also the reason for poor ejection direction. If the rim was better encased on the breech face and the extractor had a shorter pivot where it could clamp the rim against the breech face then ejection would be perfect....like it is on my pistol with a 1DogFish extractor. Take a look at how remington and Ruger work their extractors and you will see the difference. You will also see the new SR22 exhibits very consistent ejection direction, even with the last round.

Walther has been told how to resolve this. Same for several other components. I sent the specs to VQ and requested that they make us some extractors. Unfortunately, they left too large a gap between the extractor face and the breech face too. Open breech face where the rim can slip off and too much play between the rim and extractor is the entire problem here. I have a VQ extractor too. M1911

P22 Extractor History Pictorial, Walther & Mods - RimfireCentral.com Forums

Extractor thread, history, ejection discussion, solution, 1DogFish and VQ, pictures.

ok, i read this and went to the link you posted and read that. heres what i got from it, i have a p22q which means i should have had the new walther factory extractor which is better than previous p22s but not perfect. the volquartsen was made to help out people with the older style. my factory extractor ejects the round perfectly while doing it by hand, but while shooting the brass ends up in my shirt or whoevers shirt is shooting the pistol more times than i'd like. the vq extractor hates to eject the round when doing it by hand but is perfect while shooting.

conclusion- i have 2 not so great extractors and should have spent more time researching and bought a 1dogfish extractor instead.

question- are the 1dogfish extractors available? i cant seem to find them. also i read another post where you mentioned some work to get the trigger a lot lighter, do you have instructions for this and would you mind sending me the links and/or files to do this work, and last but not least im going to try the vq spring with the walther extractor and see how that performs

[1917-1911M]

There are no more 1Dogfish extractors. 1DF is a member at RFC who had a CAD milling machine or some such machinery. He sent me the drawings for the extractor milling/machining. It was 4' long with all the radii, lengths, etc. What he provided was an extractor where the face had been left purposely too far to the rear. Each person interested in getting one had to file the face to remove enough material so that the extractor would just barely reach over the rim of a round.

In addition, I had already determined that when a round was being removed from the magazine the rear of the round slanted as it came out of the mag and slid up the breech face. Too tight of a tolerance could bind the rim....not a good thing on a rimfire cartridge. The solution was to either undercut the tip as Walther and VQ have done or to slant the bottom edge of the tip so that the rim could slide up freely but leaving enough material to securely hold the spent case in place so that when the rim hit the ejector, the tip of the extractor caused the case to pivot over the tip and in the process be forcefully ejected to the right.

It didn't take much effort to get it right. Somewhere back along the line we did a lot of discussing this. The problem with the stock extractor and the VQ is that they both still have a gap that allows the rim to float, fall off, move out of position and not properly pivot off of the ejector. If you look at a typical Ruger extractor you will see a very short pivot arm where the tip not only moves in but moves rearward clamping a rim against the bolt face. Result, very consistent ejection.

Nothing can be done to the P22 breech face or mag....the cure is in the extractor. Lowering trigger pull is by cocking the hammer and leaving it cocked, then polishing the two sear legs, polishing the catch notch, polishing the rear of the upright legs on the trigger bar where they engage the sear, polishing the nose of the trigger spur and good lubricant.

The stock hammer spring takes 8 lbs of pull to cock the hammer, if you over wind it a bit, i.e. weaken it, at 6.5 lbs you will get light firing pin strikes and you cannot unwind it to correct the situation. So, I suggest you leave the hammer spring alone other than leaving the hammer cocked. Gun empty, safety on of course. M1911