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PPS M2 Barrel Peened near feed ramp?

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#1 · (Edited)
So I was just cleaning my PPS M2 last night and I noticed something interesting on the barrel. There is a small peened mark on the right side near the feed ramp that is bare metal, and not the normal black of the barrel finish. This spot lines up perfectly with the trigger mechanism that protrudes from the frame. that mechanism sits in the pocket of this peened spot when the pistol is assembled and the slide is pulled back.

This pistol has 450 rounds through it and is about a month old.

I have attached an image showing the spot in question. I am curious, does anyone else's PPS M2 have this spot?

I was going to contact Walther about it but their website has been down all day.

Edit: I wouldn't minds some opinions on if people consider this safe to fire with this going on. This is my carry pistol.
 

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#168 ·
Sold to a local gunsmith. Lost 55 bucks from new but that's fine. He's fixing it up for his wife. Says he's fixed one before.

I would have kept it but since Walther shot me some BS I'm done with them. Don't need that kind of customer service.

Now off to buy something else and hope my PPQ stays flawless like it's been.
 
#169 ·
Sold to a local gunsmith. Lost 55 bucks from new but that's fine. He's fixing it up for his wife. Says he's fixed one before.
Hate to say it, because I still really like my PPS M2, but, if I could sell mine, right now, for only a $55 hit it might be gone.

Not only, or even mainly, because of this flaw. Mine hasn't even exhibited it (yet?). No, but, because of Walther's attitude toward this flaw, the PPS M2's plastic striker guide cracking if you dry-fire (too much?) and their attitude toward the flaws in their PPQ and PPS (at least) barrels.

I would have kept it but since Walther shot me some BS I'm done with them. Don't need that kind of customer service.
Exactly.

Now off to buy something else and hope my PPQ stays flawless like it's been.
Here's what was on my short list before I bought my PPS M2:

  • Ruger LC9S (the "S" is critical)
  • S&W M&P Shield, Performance Center (must be a PC)

I would probably lean toward the Ruger, but hard to say.

Knowing what I now know: It certainly would not have been a Walther.
 
#173 ·
At this point, I would also take Jacksinthe's deal in a heartbeat.

I heard back from Walther yesterday. They ignored most of my email and only focused on the additional damage the gunsmith added. He said it was very unusual for that to happen and offered to replace the barrel and sent me a return label. I wrote back explaining only replacing the barrel without fixing the root cause would only lead to another damaged barrel. I also requested that he address the rest of my email, in which I detail my disagreement with their gunsmith's findings from when I sent it in.

I am sure they are busy, but it gets frustrating getting short and incomplete responses and waiting up to a week between each exchange.

It's getting to the point where I am considering selling it and moving on. If I do that though, I am thinking it will be better to leave the current barrel with the matching SN in place. The guys at my LGS agree it would be silly. A new barrel would end up with the same damage anyway, minus the extra grind marks which while annoying, aren't a huger concern. I plan on including the warranty "repair" info when I sell it and I also have a log of every round thats gone down the barrel, including brand/bullet/weight information.

Once I get final confirmation that Walther is unwilling to do more than replace the barrel, I will work on selling it and roll that money into something else. Like others have posted, I've looked at all the usual suspects and will probably end up with a p938. I have the p238 and love it so it seems like a natural progression.
 
#174 ·
I've looked at all the usual suspects and will probably end up with a p938. I have the p238 and love it so it seems like a natural progression.

The P938 is quite different (we have 2 EQ's) but you know that already. Personally.....I would go with the new barrel and sell it. Most people are not as much into serial number matching as making certain that parts are OEM.
 
#179 ·
My 2 cents. Walther has a life tine warranty. I'd continue to use the pistol (as long as there are no failures to eject, load etc). When there is a failure due to the barrel "damage" and such, them make them replace the pistol or get a Product Liability suite going.
 
#189 · (Edited)
Got it.....how about a picture of the upside down slide sitting right next to the frame just like it would sit...firearm loaded, striker cocked. From what I can gather the forward piece (horn) has one job.....cause the firing pin block to be engaged so that it blocks the striker when the slide is closed and the trigger is forward. Pull the trigger and the trigger bar horn moves off the firing pin block allowing it to disengage......I see no reason for any contact with the right side of the barrel chamber. OldFart and I would bubba it immediately.

We'd take a look at how much material could be removed from either the trigger bar horn or the right side of the chamber or both.......and then put a few hundred in the 10 ring.

On the other hand.....if there are Members here with some PPS M2s that absolutely do not have this issue.....there should be some good photos and measurements taken until the difference between the parts can be seen.....angle of the horn, height, width of the chamber area, depth of the existing cut on the right side of the chamber......something. If Walther gunsmiths have looked at a number of these firearms, some with interference issues and some not.....they should know exactly what is going on. 1917
 
#191 ·
Trigger Bar Position

I'm attaching two photos that show the trigger bar position with the trigger in a pulled position and a forward position. Again, the trigger bar moves to the rear and presses upward on the striker safety when the trigger is pulled. This can be verified if you pull the magazine, start with the trigger forward, shine a light into the magazine well and observe the trigger bar movement when the trigger is pulled.
 

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#196 ·
I don't know Mike.....but I will report this.....went into two very well know and very good gun shops here yesterday to have a first hand look at the situation........and, other than the sales staff.....I was the only shopper in the store. One seemed to have about 1/2 of the lights turned off as well. On second thought...I think two women were looking at sun glasses in the first store. No Walther PPS pistols in either......typical. 1917
 
#197 ·
Is there any reason for the barrel to contact the trigger bar or vise versa? Does the barrel work in any manner as a disconnect? And while you are at it.....I'm still not understanding the firing pin safety. With the slide closed, trigger forward.....what is the status of the firing pin safety and is the trigger bar touching it at all. In my opinion the safety should be engaged, i.e., in a position to block movement of the striker into the primer should the pistol be dropped or otherwise whacked. The pistol could be designed to have the horn press the safety up causing it to block the striker or it could be designed so that movement of the horn disengages the safety as the trigger is pulled. Which is it? No one has posted a picture of the upside down slide positioned adjacent to the frame/horn and in what would be a fully closed slide position. Does the Classic and M2 operate in an identical manner or are they different? 1917
 
#198 ·
Observation and comment for consideration.

I have a PPS Classic BE manufacture date. I do not have a PPS M2.


My understanding based upon the pictures and posts in this thread, apparently only some PPS M2s have the barrel peening problem and no PPS Classics have this problem.
The problem is caused by the M2 trigger bar shifting toward the pistol center line during the trigger pull cycle and making contact with the barrel.

Some members have suggested taking measurements of the PPS M2s and PPS classics to see if there are significant differences.

Points for consideration.

Could the trigger bar shifting travel be caused by the trigger bar not being constrained properly? By slipping along the trigger pin?

Or could the trigger bar be deflected by some portion of it such as cruciform or some other trigger bar location coming in contact with the frame or some other part, or protruding interference?


Or could the bad trigger bars be bent or are too flexible due to improper stamping or some other cause.

I suspect:
1. Some interference causing the trigger bar to be forced toward the pistol centerline.
2. or some stamped trigger bars being barely in spec.
 
#199 · (Edited)
Is there any reason for the barrel to contact the trigger bar or vise versa?
Yes. The trigger bar horn is intended to move into the two concave slots on the left side of the barrel. The bar movement is as follows:

As the slide moves forward the trigger bar advances forward from its rear most position where the horn is at its apex (see my photo above Trigger Pulled).

Trigger bar advances downward at an approx. 10 degree angle from its apex. At time of initial forward movement the bar rests against the inside of the frame. As it continues downward on the 10 degree angle the trigger bar begins to move laterally to the left.

As the trigger bar horn reaches the barrel lug the top of the horn is very slightly above the ridge which is between the two concave cuts in the barrel lug.

As the trigger bar completes its full forward movement the top of the horn now rests directly against the ridge.

The entire purpose of the trigger bar moving into the barrel lug as I have described is to maintain the trigger bar alignment to ensure the horn is directed onto the striker safety to force it up and out of the way of the striker when the trigger is pulled.


Does the barrel work in any manner as a disconnect?
No. The barrel secures the trigger bar horn as described and that is all.


With the slide closed, trigger forward.....what is the status of the firing pin safety and is the trigger bar touching it at all.
The striker safety is fully extended downward. Remember, the trigger bar horn presses upward to release the safety.

No, the horn is the only contact point on the trigger bar. The trigger bar is angled downward from the top of the horn to the horizontal surface of the bar at approx. 30 degrees and that prevents the bar from contacting the striker safety.
 
#202 ·
This would be easier if we could embed photos directly, but I'll try to give this a shot with some pictures for 1917.

Walther designed the barrel with some material removed from the side for the trigger bar horn to ride in this cutout.

Area where trigger horn should ride as the slide returns, catches the sear, and pushes the trigger bar forward.
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42666&stc=1&d=1490205573

Here is the horn on the trigger bar:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42658&stc=1&d=1490205573

As the "cruciform" -- Walther's is more like a "broken" cross -- rises in the channel in the sear housing, the left tab when viewed from the back reaches the top of the channel. When this tab can no longer freely travel upward, the right side of the "cruciform" rises slightly under the tension of the spring and slop in the assembly. This ultimately caused a rotation of the entire trigger bar. It's subtle, though. You have to look hard to see it. However, as this motion is amplified down the trigger bar, the horn moves toward center of frame enough to impact the barrel instead of riding in the designed cutaway in the barrel.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/...-pps-m2-barrel-peened-near-feed-ramp-slot.jpg

You can see the trigger bar move to center of frame as I'm pushing the trigger back to the forward position just as the return of the slide would when the striker catches the sear and pulls it forward.



Obviously, the point of impact is after firing. After the cartridge fires, the slide is driven backward, the barrel drops, and as the slide is returning forward, the striker catches the sear and pushes the trigger bar horn into the barrel. Because the barrel is not completely rigid at this point, and because the trigger barn horn also has some play, the impact I believe does two things. One, the trigger bar strikes the barrel and is deflected into the slot where it should be, and as the trigger bar horn strikes the barrel, it pushes up on an already rising barrel. This is why I think of it as a glancing blow, though it still causes damage.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=42674&stc=1&d=1490207126

This video, while it doesn't show the trigger bar, does show how the barrel moves in relation to the slide cycling, and may be helpful to some.



Hope this helps everyone that doesn't have a PPS M2 to see what is happening.

My personal opinion is that the trigger bar is slightly out of spec with regard to the bend angles.

Salty
 

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#204 ·
This would be easier if we could embed photos directly, but I'll try to give this a shot with some pictures for 1917.

You obviously know how to produce and post a video. Can you do the following using the video feature?

Place the barrel in position on the frame....the barrel will sit there without assistance.

Pull the trigger to show the bar moving rearward.

Gently pull/push the trigger forward to show the trigger bar horn movement forward and downward.

Again pull/push the trigger forward very slowly and capture the trigger bar horn as it moves into the top concave slot and then as the horn settles into its final location.

That would go a long way to demonstrate the cycle. If you're really ambitious you could put the slide on, remove the magazine, turn the pistol upside down and cycle the trigger to capture the horn moving across the striker safety (should be able to see the safety move inward) and then observe the horn moving forward of the safety as you return the trigger to the full forward position.

That is your homework assignment for the day!:D
 
#205 ·
Very good explanation Salty....only a couple of questions. 1st, are you able to figure out a solution to the trigger bar rotating to the left as it moves forward? Seeing it is very easy btw in your video. I take it the trigger bar is spring loaded in an upward direction and it seems from your description that the left side of the so called cruciform is impacting against something that limits its upward movement. But, that the right side has no such limitation and can continue to rise which causes the part to tilt toward the center of the pistol. This in turn then allows the horn to engage the right side of the chamber cutout. Add to all of this the barrel is unlocking and locking and the horn now has an interference fit. This doesn't seem right.

When I see cutouts like shown they usually have a couple of purposes....one to simply provide clearance for a part or two, provide clearance but also act to limit movement of the trigger bar with regard to sear engagement until other parts within the pistol are properly positioned. e.g., slide full closed, round fully chambered. You see this all the time with side mounted trigger bars, a cutout in the slide located so that the trigger bar can rise to engage the sear or a cylinder but not if the slide did not fully close....if this were to happen, the limited cutout shape now blocks the trigger bar from rising which of course stops the firearm from being fired.

I'm not reading of any such purpose for the chamber cut out. It is not necessarily intended to guide the trigger bar up and down or left to right. If the chamber cutout is not tasked with disconnecting the trigger bar in some manner then there would seem to be no good reason for it to touch the trigger bar at any time.

I still don't understand operation of the firing pin safety on this pistol in relation to the trigger bar horn although I know it is simple..... At some point the passive safety moves down and is in position to block the striker. ( I would assume....barrel fully locked, slide forward, trigger forward) i.e. the safety is spring loaded to block the firing pin as the barrel locks and the slide moves forward independent of the trigger bar. When the trigger is pulled...movement of the trigger bar/horn presses the safety up, disengaging it and continues to hold it up until the sear releases the striker.

If all of this is correct.....what holds the trigger bar in position? Is the front fitted over the trigger pin? Or is the rear fitted and the front portion simply dropped into place. This would be so easy...gun in hand....even in a gun shop but I had no luck there. It would seem that careful study of the part might indicate the horn could simply be bent to the right just a bit....as long as it still lined up properly with the bottom of the safety and didn't run into other internal parts. But...perhaps that would only allow the part to flop around even more..... I'll have another look at the parts diagram.... This doesn't sound like an Ulm sort of thing......1917
 
#206 ·
I think I've got it....all except for the significant interference.... Your post Mr. Chandler and Salty make it pretty clear what is going on.....except what to do if anything about the trigger bar tilting over.....which I am to understand does not happen on the Classics or on some other M2s. 1917
 
#207 ·
Outstanding example of 2 ( or 3,4,5...) heads are better than one. I hope Walther is following this as I fully expect you guys are going to demonstrate the issue in very simple terms and develop a fix for this issue that Walther will implement. My hat is off to all who are contributing positive info to this thread.
 
#208 · (Edited)


So....... do you ever notice how many people on the radio or tv begin their answer to any questions asked of them with......"so". Boy does that get old..... Soooooooooooo, above is part of the parts diagram. The green arrow point to the so called horn which is the part that is banging into or being banged into at the cutout on the right side of the barrel chamber. I take it the trigger spring attaches at the blue arrow area and pulls the trigger bar assembly forward at all times.

Sooooooooo, how much slop is there in the fitment at the red and purple pins 12.3 and 12.4....those look like excellent areas to tighten up trigger bar flop.

How much runout exists between the inside of the frame and the upper trigger body? Could a thin washer or two be installed on the left side to move the trigger assembly slightly toward the right side of the frame and in the process move the trigger bar slightly to the right? What about the area where the trigger bar connects to the trigger...is there a pin there? Is there room for a washer to tighten up side to side movement and minimize any flop? Something, somewhere has to have a loose fit or the trigger bar couldn't flop about. At the CZ section of RFC there is a specific trigger job for the American because the pin through the trigger is undersized. Someone has even found a stock, thin tube of brass that simply needs to be cut and installed over the pivot/retaining pin to remove slop there. I think I would prefer to take out slop before bending the horn outward.....but one way or the other this should be a pretty easy fix.....easy for me to say....I don't have a PPS M2....but I think pretty highly of them. 1917
 
#209 · (Edited)
I decided this is all so similar to my P99 that I should remove the slide and have a look. Very similar layout. There is no cutout on the rear of the chamber although there is a 45 degree slant cut into the bottom right corner which I suppose would allow the trigger bar to jump over where it belonged should something happen there. There are no marks on the trigger bar horn or side of the chamber....none. I can move the trigger bar very, very slightly......perhaps 0.005" by wiggling the trigger one side to the other. The geometry of the trigger spring attachment seems to keep the trigger bar pressed to the right and if not against the right side of the polymer grip at least it makes it run parallel. The trigger bar does not lean one way or the other at all.

With the barrel installed, trigger forward, slide laid out to the side as it would be positioned on the pistol the striker safety does not sit over any part of the horn. The horn only comes into play as the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves rearward and then only approximately where the sear would break. I expect the PPS works similarly. There is an additional upright piece on the trigger bar that must match a cutout in the fully closed slide or things don't work. This prevents firing out of battery.

The trigger/trigger pin/frame fitment isn't rock solid but only allows very little sidewise movement. Likewise the nose of the trigger bar where it attaches to the trigger can barely be moved.....there is resistance to any flopping of the trigger bar. The horn runs in very close proximity.....0.008" or so to the right side of the chamber. I didn't measure it....let's just call it close but there are no scratch marks of any kind.

If the PPS is slimmer it would seem Walther might need to make a relief cut in the right side of the chamber to allow the trigger bar to be moved closer to the center of the pistol. I don't know what all the wobbling is about....it doesn't exist on my P99. So I would say interference there on the PPS serves no purpose to the function of the trigger bar or safety... 1917



Happened to have a picture of the slide off, barrel on, on the P99 showing proximity of the firing pin disconnect horn to the right side of the chamber. You can see the small 45 degree cut at the bottom rear and with the trigger pulled the horn does move rearward of the chamber.....not sure of the reason for the 45 degree cut because the horn doesn't hit nor is there any part of the frame that seems to be in the way of the tilting barrel. There is really no excuse for all that banging around.....but, now I know why your PPS trigger bar is flopping around.....it is being whacked on and I'm sure the fitment at the trigger isn't made to handle that abuse. One of my pistols.....Shield perhaps has a leaf spring IIRC that presses the trigger bar outward. The mags need an accessory that makes them press the trigger bar to the right when loaded....or something. Looks like the cure might be a new, tight trigger/trigger bar assembly and then to do something to make sure the barrel doesn't whack it. Bend the horn???????
 
#211 · (Edited)
I decided this is all so similar to my P99 that I should remove the slide and have a look. Very similar layout.
Similar but different. The bar linkage appears to be in two segments but can't tell from the photo. Operationally sound the same......does it have a disconnector on the rear of the bar?

I would suggest that no one attempt to bend the PPS trigger bar......it might snap in two like a piece of pot metal.....mine certainly did and the pressure which was applied in 2 directions was not significant.

I completely disassembled mine again and am convinced that the trigger bar does have a very slight bow in it but there are a number of locations where the bar makes solid contact from the sear housing to and including the insertion into the trigger. I can apply slight lateral pressure to the trigger and the bar will then move in a straight line fore and aft. However, that test was with the trigger roll pin removed so the trigger had a bit more play.
 
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