WaltherForums
 

Go Back   WaltherForums > Walther Firearms > PP and TP Series > FAQ: PP/TP

Like Tree2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-01-2009, 10:57 PM   #1
Super Moderator
 
searcher451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 20,650
searcher451 .22
The 'Manurhin myth' explained

Sponsored Links
The following information is courtesy of resident forum expert MGMike and should help to explain the post-war relationship between Walther and the Manurhin operation in France, as well as some of the myths that have grown up around it. Mike's reply here came in response to a question initially posed by forum member v1958:

I was under the assumption that Manurhin in France produced all the post-war PPK, PPK/S that come from Europe. Parts were sent to Germany to be roll-marked and finished. Hence PPK, PPK/S marked Manurhin and one marked Walther-Ulm are one and the same...

And Mike's reply:

... a common misconception that is rapidily attaining the status of "truth" through internet repetition by people who read it somewhere.

A hardened slide cannot be successfully roll-marked. That is why PP-series pistols that were machined by Manurhin (from special forgings specified by Walther and supplied from Germany, it is worth noting) that were to become "German" Walthers were shipped to Ulm with "soft" slides. Ulm marked the slides and differentially heat treated them by oil hardening plus electrical induction hardening in the area of the safety lever; then the slides were polished and blued (which is why the blue on Walther-marked slides is brighter and does not match the frame blue). Magazines for all .32 cal. PP-series pistols were manufactured at Ulm, (and reverse-supplied to Manurhin). Germans (not French) performed final assembly, quality control inspection, test firing and targeting, and finally proofing. The corresponding tasks on guns marked "Manurhin" were performed 100% by the French; those guns never saw a German fitter or inspector.

That is the difference.

Later on, of course, there was some PP-series production at Ulm that did not involve Manurhin at all.

I do not mean to belittle Manurhin final inspection and quality control -- which was very good indeed. But it is a fact that Ulm-marked pistols were not completed by the same people, and anybody who thinks that final fitting and QC inspection is just a formality need look no further than S&W's recent experiences. Most of S&W's problems with defective guns clearly originate from lapses in quality control.

The PP-series pistols "pre-produced" in France (from German forgings) were delivered to Ulm with the slides unmarked, soft and in the white. The front sight was drilled, and the slides were marked, heat-treated, polished and blued at Ulm. The reassembled pistols were inspected, function tested, test fired and proofed by the Germans. All of this entitled them under German law to be marked as W. German-made. Guns produced entirely by Manurhin were contractually not entitled to bear the Walther Banner trademark.

Later on, in the late '80s, Walther began making them from scratch. They were not as good as the earlier joint-effort guns.


The source of this information is found here:

http://www.waltherforums.com/showthr...=manuhrin+guns

In another post from early 2009, Mike provided this bit of history on the name Manurhin, which also should be of interest:

Manurhin is an artificial word, so it really has no "correct" pronunciation. It is a trade name made up from "Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin," the formal name of the company that was located on the Rhine River at Mulhouse-Bourtzwiller, France. The name combines "Manu-" and "-rhin." Pronounce those in French, and you've got it: something like "Mahn-oo-ran'. But here in the USA, few can get their tongue around that, so it's most commonly pronounced "Man'-u-rin."
runnr548 likes this.
__________________
Searcher 451

Μολὼν λαβέ
searcher451 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 08:14 PM   #2
153
Senior Member
 
153's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,234
153 .22
I would love to see the evolution of the slide markings on the post war Walther PPK, I have seen ones marked "Manuhrin", Some "Walther Mark II, Made in France" and the more common "Walther" seen from the early 1960's - originally etched onto the slide and then stamped.

Any source for this information?
153 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 09:20 PM   #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
ceb289 Unproven
Made in France?

Forgive me if I am being dense. I have a Walther PPK/S in .380 that has all the Walther markings, except that it is stamped made in France on the frame and slide. Is this a hybrid or from a transition period? There are no Manhurin markings at all.
ceb289 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 10:45 PM   #4
Super Moderator
 
searcher451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 20,650
searcher451 .22
Ceb: What's the serial number on your gun?
__________________
Searcher 451

Μολὼν λαβέ
searcher451 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2009, 07:05 AM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
ceb289 Unproven
Made in France?

The serial number is 2560XX and there is a St. Etienne stamp on the barrel. Thanks for the reply! \
ceb289 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 09:23 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
ceb289 Unproven
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceb289 View Post
The serial number is 2560XX and there is a St. Etienne stamp on the barrel. Thanks for the reply! \
I forgot the "S" suffix so 2560XXS
ceb289 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 10:01 AM   #7
Super Moderator
 
searcher451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 20,650
searcher451 .22
Ceb: Your PPK/S .380 Manurhin fits in the known serial range of 238581 to 329527S guns that were produced in France between October 1969 and March of 1984. Given that, your gun was likely made in 1970 or early 1971.

According to Dieter Marschall's fine book "Walther Pistols Models 1 Through P99," the notes of Manurhin or Walther in the "manufacturer's" column refer only to the actual manufacturer and not to whatever may be found on the slide legend. "That is to say, all Model PPs made before number 700,001 and all model PPKs made before number 800,001, and all small caliber versions of Mods. PP/PPK and PPK/S, were manufactured at Manurhin, even if they carry the 'Carl Walther Waffenfabrik Ulm/Do' slide legend." The S suffix designated the PPK/S models.

The Marschall book is an excellent reference for Walther owners and collectors. You can pick it up online at Ucross Books in Los Alamos, New Mexico.
__________________
Searcher 451

Μολὼν λαβέ
searcher451 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 12:20 PM   #8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25
ceb289 Unproven
Thank you very much!! I appreciate you time and effort, and I will look for the book............Cliff
ceb289 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2009, 01:55 PM   #9
Super Moderator
 
searcher451's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: West Coast
Posts: 20,650
searcher451 .22
No worries, Cliff. The Manurhins are wonderful guns; the quality and pride of craftsmanship really shows through on them. I recently picked up a PPK/S Manurhin that is LNIB, and it's every bit the equal of the German-made guns, IMO. Every Walther admirer should have one.
__________________
Searcher 451

Μολὼν λαβέ
searcher451 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2009, 01:47 AM   #10
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: South Florida, A Third World Country with Modern Conveniences
Posts: 147
sub-moa .22
WADR Searcher...

I believe you were quoting Dieter's 7.65mm/.32acp sn range ...

ceb was speaking of a Manurhin .380 PPK/s which @ sn 2560XXS would actually date to 1982...

Dieter notes the serial number range for 9mmk/.380acp Manurhin PPK/s pistols is: 1968 @ 134,941 to 1985 @ 267,721 (the later is actually slightly off BTW-see below).

Additionally, I've got a "Carl Walther Waffenfabrik Ulm/Do." slide legend, "Made in France/Manurhin" marked frame, St. Etienne proofed PPK/s in "9mm kurz/.380 ACP", Interarms import with sn 2516XXS dated by Carl Walther GmbH as "produced by the company Manurhin/France in the year 1982".

As a side note, I've also got a pair of "Manurhin PPK/s Cal.380ACP/9mm kurz" slide legend, "Made in France"/"Manurhin" marked frame, St. Etienne proofed pistols imported by Matra/Manurhin with sn 2675XXS and 2678XXS (Note: second sn 400 higher than Dieter's 1985 highest sn) and they are dated to 1985.

A '70/'71 9mmk PPK/s would be in the 150000S range.

ceb, you might look closely at the bottom of the frame and you might find a very small "Manurhin" and "Cog" opposite the circular "Made in France".
sub-moa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   WaltherForums > Walther Firearms > PP and TP Series > FAQ: PP/TP


Search tags for this page
manhurin
,

manurhin

,
manurhin firearms
,
manurhin mr 73 for sale
,
manurhin pp
,
manurhin pp serial numbers
,
manurhin ppk
,
manurhin ppk s 380 acp
,
manurhin walther
,
manurhin walther ppk
,
walther manurhin
,
walther ppk manurhin
Click on a term to search for related topics.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.